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Civil war engulfs Labour Party



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Published Date: 03 August 2008
SCOTTISH Labour was facing full-scale civil war last night as leading MSPs demanded the new leader wrest "complete control" of the party from its London headquarters.
Former Finance Minister Tom McCabe said the next Labour leader at Holyrood should have total power over Scottish affairs, claiming Jack McConnell had been hamstrung by Westminster MPs while in office.

Andy Kerr, the bookies' favourite to win the
Scottish Labour leadership race, said he wanted the job to be "beefed up". His allies are demanding the new leader should be seen as "top dog" in Scotland, ahead of Des Browne, the Scottish Secretary in the UK Government.

But the moves prompted a backlash from several MPs, who insisted that Scottish Labour had to remain part of the UK-wide party in order to take on the Nationalists. They warned the move was part of an attempt to create an "SNP Mark Two".

Among those opposing Kerr is his own Labour MP at Westminster, Adam Ingram, with whom he shares an office in East Kilbride. Ingram said he will not be backing his own MSP for the top job and, in a further riposte to Kerr, has insisted that the vacant post is "for the leader of MSPs at Holyrood, not for the leader in Scotland".

The vacancy was triggered after the resignation of Wendy Alexander, who took over from Jack McConnell this time last year. The leader's job is routinely referred to as the top post in Scotland, but, in fact, the leader of the Scottish party is the UK leader, Gordon Brown. MSPs around Kerr insist that the new Holyrood leader should be in charge in Scotland.

Scotland on Sunday understands that Kerr's call for a stronger leadership role is being backed by both McConnell and Alexander, who have complained in the past that their own time in office was "hampered" by the influence of the UK party.

McCabe said that the Holyrood leader should be in "complete control" of the organisation and the policies affecting Scotland.

McCabe told Scotland on Sunday that there were some in the party who were "still in denial" following last year's election defeat to the SNP, and their catastrophic loss in the Glasgow East by-election two weeks ago.

He said both MPs and Labour councillors now have to accept that Holyrood needs to take priority in Scotland.

"We need to learn the lessons from the SNP," he said. "They are able to state their case while the Scottish Labour leader has to be more guarded. People in Westminster and local Government need to realise the realities of devolution. That hasn't happened."

He said the loss of Glasgow East had been a further example of the SNP showing they were able to win over Labour supporters.

Compared with the SNP leader at Holyrood – who is in charge of the entire party – McCabe added: "What I would say is that as things currently stand, they (the Holyrood leader] leave themselves at a severe disadvantage."

However, the call for the Holyrood leader to be elevated in importance was met with immediate opposition from elsewhere in the party.

Ingram told his local news paper: "Let's not forget this vote is for the leader of MSPs at Holyrood, not for the leader in Scotland." Another MP said: "Everyone talks about Labour MPs being London-centric. Nobody talks about the MSPs being Edinburgh-centric, but that is what they are. This is basically about creating an SNP Mark Two."

A third Scottish MP said: "It is madness to say that they have to have a dividing line with London Labour. This kind of thing drove Henry (McLeish] and it drove Jack and it has got us precisely nowhere. We need someone to change the record."

Kerr attempted to play down his call for more power after launching his leadership bid last week, insisting he did not want to rip up the party's rule book. However, allies say that he will enact major changes to the status of the job if elected.

They claim that when in power McConnell had to "phone up Gordon Brown" when he wanted to enact policies, in order to check they would be acceptable. "That can't go on any more," said one of Kerr's team.

But Westminster sources say the move could trigger a major turf war if, as expected, Brown decides in his forthcoming reshuffle to create a more powerful Scottish Secretary. MPs believe Brown may boost the role – currently undertaken by Defence Secretary Browne – as he seeks to take on the SNP.

The other two candidates for the job, Iain Gray and Cathy Jamieson, have adopted a more cautious approach to the status of the job so far.

A spokesman for Gray said: "His position is that it doesn't matter about the name of the job, the person who wins this contest will have a mandate.

"That is what you are going to get from going to the entire Electoral College. The Scottish Labour leader at Holyrood will be a distinctive Scottish voice."

Kerr says today that £150m of Lottery money should be transferred to Scotland as a legacy payment following Glasgow's Commonwealth Games in 2014.

SNP MP Angus Robertson said: "This is a classic turf war. Labour politicians in both parliaments are so preoccupied with having power they are rapidly losing it."

Big guns rally to defend Brown

THREE Labour heavyweights have issued a public vote of confidence in Gordon Brown in a bid to crush speculation of a leadership bid this autumn.

Chancellor Alistair Darling, deputy leader Harriet Harman and skills secretary John Denham all spoke out, insisting that Brown was the best person to lead the party.

They were forced to act after David Miliband last week laid out his own vision for Labour's future in a newspaper article which omitted to mention the Prime Minister once.

Labour sources supportive of Miliband continue to insist that a change is required at the top if the party is to avoid plummeting to an electoral disaster against the resurgent Tories.

But, in what is a coordinated attempt to counter the speculation, Brown's Cabinet is now hitting back.

"The determination and strong purpose shown by Gordon are why he will lead us into the next election and win the confidence of the country. All of us are focused on that," Darling said.

Harman added: "When you face these kinds of global problems, you need as Prime Minister someone who is respected on the international stage and someone whose hard work and ability over the last 11 years has made Britain better off."

And in a coded warning to Miliband and his allies, Denham warned: "We do not want a summer of leadership speculation. We have got a good case to make and we should get out there and make it. All of this leadership speculation gets in the way of us putting our message across."

The intervention is part of a major counteroffensive by Brown and Labour's whips following the week's events. Although Labour MPs are usually banned by party whips from taking part in any surveys carried out by media organisations, they have been told that they should reply on any about the Prime Minister to express loyalty to Brown.

The counteroffensives also saw The Apprentice star Sir Alan Sugar coming out to back Brown yesterday in a newspaper article.

Writing in the Sun, he said: "We will make a fatal error by not giving Gordon a chance to roll out his plans. Yes, he is a serious bloke. Dare I say he may come over a bit boring – he's not a trained actor, he's a deep thinker. Let me tell you, this fellow is no mug."

Brown is still on holiday but is expected to begin a major attempt to reassert his authority by the end of this month. A reshuffle is widely expected, along with an economic recovery plan, with tax cuts expected.

Chancellor Alistair Darling may borrow more funds in order to pay for tax cuts on fuel, stamp duty and income, although Treasury sources are now playing down chances of a one-off windfall tax on energy companies.

Nevertheless, First Minister Alex Salmond will today add more pressure on the Prime Minister by insisting that there is a strong case for such a windfall tax. He also says the Treasury should break its own rules on borrowing and go further into the red in order to help ease the pain for taxpayers.

In a warning to the Prime Minister, Salmond will say that cuts in fuel duty and reductions in heating costs are necessary to restore consumer confidence.

Salmond says that in the last downturn in the early 1990s the UK Government borrowed far more as it sought to pump up the economy. He says that Brown and Darling should now do the same.

"In moral terms, Government cannot stand aside and watch families being driven into fuel poverty," he said.

And he added: "I urge the Prime Minister to come out of his bunker and tackle the deflationary forces in the economy. Action must be taken to resurrect consumer confidence."

Salmond will call for specific measures in Scotland, including a demand for the Treasury to allocate a share of its North Sea oil revenues.

One of the contenders for the vacant Holyrood Labour leader post, Cathy Jamieson, hit out at Salmond last night over what she described as his "megaphone diplomacy".









The full article contains 1578 words and appears in Scotland On Sunday newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

 
1

JohnMcDonald,

03/08/2008 00:40:26

"Cathy Jamieson, hit out at Salmond last night over what she described as his "megaphone diplomacy".!

Oh my, oh my, oh my! So hands up anyone who feels this particular jibe hit home?


2

frank mcbride,

lusitania 03/08/2008 00:41:00
I eargerly await developments. NuLab, in Scotland is in terminal decay.
3

Dougie Douglas,

Brisbane 03/08/2008 00:41:01
Of course will Labour take note of this advice?

Nope.

Political wilderness for 10 years coming up.
4

Jwil,

03/08/2008 00:48:50
"Ingram told his local news paper: "Let's not forget this vote is for the leader of MSPs at Holyrood, not "for the leader in Scotland." Another MP said: "Everyone talks about Labour MPs being London-centric. Nobody talks about the MSPs being Edinburgh-centric, but that is what they are. This is basically about creating an SNP Mark Two."

Have a read at what's being reported in the Sunday Herald Adam. You will choke on your porridge.
5

Fifi la Bonbon,

03/08/2008 00:54:55
"SCOTTISH Labour was facing full-scale civil war last night..."

No, this is just politics. Remember politics?

Far from being in decay, the Labour Party in Scotland and elsewhere is renewing itself, and cutting out the decay. This is going to be fun for (most of) those of us directly involved, and for the rest of you, sit back and enjoy the show!
6

Am Balach,

Isle of Skye 03/08/2008 00:56:11
AM2 is on a thread talking about fashion. Strange he's not here?
7

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 03/08/2008 00:59:34
5

I first thought it would be like watching a car crash, morbid but hard to take your eyes off.

Instead what we have here is a suicide... pitful and hardly an enjoyable show... unless you are a ghoul.
8

,

03/08/2008 01:03:46
Comment Removed By Administrator
Reason:
9

FrancesP,

03/08/2008 01:11:58
"But the moves prompted a backlash from several MPs, who insisted that Scottish Labour had to remain part of the UK-wide party in order to take on the Nationalists. They warned the move was part of an attempt to create an 'SNP Mark Two'."

Oh, for pity's sake, what planet do these people live on? Even the Scottish Tories have more autonomy than their Labour counterparts - are they not still firmly part of a UK-wide party? Are they an 'SNP Mark Two'?
10

Abel Magwitch,

Hamilton 03/08/2008 01:25:33
Twenty odd years ago, the BBC produced a wonderful poitical drama called "House of Cards" starring Ian Richardson as a wily schemer, quoting lines from Richard III. It was highly controversial at the time and aimed at a Conservative party in disarray.

Richardson is sadly no longer with us but surely it is the right moment for a remake of HoC, now with Labour in disarray in Scotland, as well as the UK as a whole. Has the Beeb got the guts to do it? Perhaps not.
11

Andrew BOD,

Aberdeen/shire 03/08/2008 01:26:39
Labour just can't get it together, can they?

They are so pre-occupied with POWER, that they've stopped listening to the people of Scotland.

There are interesting times ahead for the much-maligned Scottish Labour MPs. Cameron will surely stop them voting on English matters, Calman will undoubtedly recommend more powers for the Scottish Parliament. They will be accountable for very little except reduced 'reserved' matters. At the same time, they will command a salary 25% more than harder-working MSPs, and will continue to claim scandalous amounts in London expenses.

Kerr and McCabe must be commended, at least, for beginning to understand the predicament that Labour has got itself into.

IF THEY ARE TO RETURN TO THE SCENE AS THE MAJOR POLITICAL FORCE IN SCOTLAND, THEY MUST DITCH THE POLICY OF OPPOSING EVERYTHING THE SNP ADVOCATES. THEY MUST BECOME INDEPENDENT OF WESTMINSTER.

Somehow, I don't see this happening until after the next General Election.
12

Iainbroch,

Moray 03/08/2008 01:56:22
War has broken out inside Labour and they are in "take no prisoners mode" Oh it is just beautiful to watch! Even the Unionist press is loving it - the best story they have had it seems for yonks?
NO PRISONERS! TAKE NO PRISONERS! BANZAI! YOU WILL DEFEND THE UNION TO THE LAST MAN! NO RETREAT!
13

For Scotlands Future,

Vote for the SNP 03/08/2008 02:33:57
A little snippet from McCabe's Sunday Herald article that the SoS failed to include:
"A leader who wants to have responsibility for raising the money their government spends and be chastened by that accountability in the process."
If this is not Fiscal Autonomy, then what is it??
14

indune1,

Canada 03/08/2008 02:36:35

The Labour Party now resembles a political type of flesh-eating disease.
15

somerferg,

perth 03/08/2008 04:17:09

Wonderful stuff - alot more interesting than the Hootsman pathetic attempt to "get at" the SNP leadership and their fashion sense. Thats right folks we are supposed to look to others such as Annabelle "big busted school marm' Goldie or perhaps Cathy "tornado bait" Jamieson oh the choices. Now back to the article great lets enjoy watching the weasels flighting amoungst themselves and their apologists on this and other threads making pathetic excuses for them!
16

Fanling,

Switzerland 03/08/2008 04:17:37
In-fighting among this bunch of scumbags in Scotland will not make a whit of difference to their prospects in the very near future. They are the very antithesis of everything the Labour Party was set up to do.

There is a history to this house of cards. The 1970s really saw the loonies take over a relatively calm asylum. Bumping along, Kinnock's attempt at reform nearly won the day, but his American-type spectacular prior to the 1992 general election brought the house down upon his head.

And so the mantle passed to the sickly grinning ventriloquist's dummy that promised so much politician's lies then delivered a raft of Tory policy. Baboom! End of the Labour Party in Britain. Yo Blair - stick to your sky-fairy superstition, aka religion. It's what you always did best, at the behest of the nutjob in the White House.

17

Guga II,

Rockall 03/08/2008 04:55:36
Hopefully we will see supporters of the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch) wake up and realise that their Branch is of no importance in Maggie Broon's scheme of things, and neither are they.

Labour supporters in Scotland are there to do as they are told, by London. Their leader in Scotland can only act on instructions from London. Their policies have to be approved by London. In other words, they a the running dogs and lackeys of London, and their views are of no importance or consequence.

Scotland is also of no importance or consequence to London, other than as a source of funds from the exploitation of Scotland, to subsidise England.

The New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch) are puppets doing their London masters bidding, and as long as they remain in this subservient position they can have no role in furthering or developing Scotland, or helping the Scottish people.

They are, in the words of Robert Burns, bought and sold for English gold, sic' a parcel of rogues in a nation.
18

terry osser,

morden 03/08/2008 05:25:10
what have labor ever contributed to any economy
19

Rif,

Wales 03/08/2008 05:38:03
The line about "re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic" seems to apply here!
20

Boy Wonder,

03/08/2008 05:44:44
#10. I think a repeat of HoC would be a great idea right now.

It's fascinating watching the NuLabour Party self-implode continuously. Blair and Dewar didn't just leave a poisoned chalice for their successors ...

Right now ... there is no-one in Labour I could trust to vote for!
21

StopTheNumpties,

Philadelphia 03/08/2008 06:00:52
"We must all hang together, or most certainly we shall all hang separately."
- B. Franklin

But is Labor listening? What we're seeing is the result of people more worried about themselves than exercising leadership. The only saving grace for Labor is that the Numpty party is similarly afflicted and will break out in the same sort of hives when they come under stress. And to the contrary, #16, there probably is a sky fairy and he obviously has a sense of humor!
22

The Daleks,

Longmen 03/08/2008 06:02:38
As the Labour Party doesn't stand for anything anymore, apart from providing employment opportunities for it's own members, why would anyone want to vote for them?
23

Phil C,

03/08/2008 06:21:16
It seems pretty clear that Labour will soon have no power at Westminster. Scottish Labour are bricking it, panicking like headless chickens. Well the chickens are coming home to roost that they have made complete tools of themselves in Scotland too. A new leader isn't going to change anything- there's nothing new there. They need a complete overhaul.

It's time for Labour politicians in Scotland to be honest and stop this petty anti-Scottish unionist thing. If they were being honest a lot of them must side with the SNP on many policies- Local Income Tax, free prescriptions, Trident, warmongering, nuclear power, promoting Scotland etc.- even independence! But they are hamstrung to do the 'right thing' by Westminster. They surely can't all be unionists and it's time for those brave enough to stand up to the Westminster bullying. Mind you pigs might fly first! If they could smarten themselves up a bit, some might even be welcomed in the SNP.
24

Phil C,

03/08/2008 06:22:11
It seems pretty clear that Labour will soon have no power at Westminster. Scottish Labour are bricking it, panicking like headless chickens. Well the chickens are coming home to roost that they have made complete tools of themselves in Scotland too. A new leader isn't going to change anything- there's nothing new there. They need a complete overhaul.

It's time for Labour politicians in Scotland to be honest and stop this petty anti-Scottish unionist thing. If they were being honest a lot of them must side with the SNP on many policies- Local Income Tax, free prescriptions, Trident, warmongering, nuclear power, promoting Scotland etc.- even independence! But they are hamstrung to do the 'right thing' by Westminster. They surely can't all be unionists and it's time for those brave enough to stand up to the Westminster bullying. Mind you pigs might fly first! If they could smarten themselves up a bit, some might even be welcomed in the SNP.
25

donald,

glasgow 03/08/2008 06:42:06
Numpties fighting in a sack with a Union Jack designer label.

SNP booting the sack all over Scotland.
26

Dr. James Wilkie,

Vienna 03/08/2008 06:56:46
So they are now admitting openly that there ain't no such animal as a Scottish Labour Party. Some of us have known that for a long time. Tony Blair's New Labour pulled out all the stops to prevent devolution happening, but in the end was forced to hijack it when it became inevitable, for the purpose of keeping it to the minimum they could get off with. The last thing the party leadership wanted was for their Scottish marionettes to have any freedom of action.

The Council of Europe (the CoE, not the EU) is now releasing the documents that prove beyond doubt that devolution was NOT a Labour initiative, but was forced on it by international diplomatic pressure. This is now going to be made public. Watch this space over the next few weeks:

http://www.realmofscotland.com/paper/View_Scotland-UN-Papers.aspx?id=2

27

Ninian Reid,

Edinburgh 03/08/2008 07:22:13
The current turmoil, as reported here, is merely a snapshot. In the big picture, a Labour party in Scotland free from the shackles of London control can only be a good thing for those us thirsting for full Scottish Independence. Meanwhile. Adam Ingram is behaving like a headless dinosaur in the Jurassic Park they call the Westminster Village.
28

Boggle fey the Bog,

03/08/2008 08:11:36
24 Phil C,03/08/2008 06:22:11 ,

Good morning Phil, how the devil are you today?

A wee bit of 'finger trouble' their Phil, on posts #23 & #24 ;-) , but I gotta agree with you, especially the bit 'about pigs flying'.

I had a mate in the Fleet Air Arm who used that phrase quite a lot, but me being ex Royal Air Force,I used to say to him, yeah they do fly, have you ever seen a 'Varsity'? :D

As for Nu Labour/Owld Torie, they gave up any right to represent Scotland when they abandoned 'Home Rule' as part of their policies in the 1950's, struth, they don't even believe in 'Republicanism' anymore, bootlickers to a man/woman!!!
29

Linda,

Edinburgh 03/08/2008 08:13:49
Until Labour in Scotland takes all its own decisions and is financed and has a Scottish call centre and not rely on bulk mailings from Cramlington then it should not be allowed to call is self the Scottish Labour Party. At present it is the British Labour Party in Scotland.

30

School Inspector,

03/08/2008 08:25:10
Think all of this shows that politics in Scotland is still just too imature for self-governance. Lord help us if those bozos in the SNP ever manage to get independance - haveing our own parliment has shown how unable ex-councellors from the Central Belt are able to manage our affairs!
31

Foresight,

By the Water of Leith 03/08/2008 08:25:22

BABIES...TOYS...&...PRAMS........all come to mind. Why doesn't Labour in Scotland...GROW UP.
32

Nikostratos,

03/08/2008 08:33:52
The...'independent Scottish labour party'



as Arnold said in the terminator is 'inevitable'
33

MacGillicuddy,

03/08/2008 08:46:25
Civil war engulfs Labour Party.

Bring it on!!

Note to Eddie B.: There is NO such thing as Scottish Labour! Ergo there is NO such thing as Scottish Labour Leadership.
34

MacGillicuddy,

03/08/2008 08:47:55
Clearly Alan Sugar is hoping to avoid having to buy his peerage by SAYING soothing things about Broon.
35

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 03/08/2008 08:49:18
Adam Ingram, an implaccable opponent of devolved government, sees it as a dangerous 'provisional government' in waiting!

He could well be right.
36

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/08/2008 08:54:06
#37 Linda

Odious, yes. Governor-general, no. She's the High Commissioner in Australia. Nice work if you can get it. Wee Eck got Malawi, not quite so glam. I wonder where Bottler Broon will be sent. Somewhere commensurate with his talents, I trust. Honourary consul in Mogadishu I would suggest.
37

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 03/08/2008 08:55:21
Scottish Labour in-fighting. Scottish Labour v London Labour. London Labour fighting like ferrets in a very small sack.

And these jokers want us to entrust them with power, where everything must go via London???

YOU MUST BE JOKING!!!!

Great to watch though! :-)
38

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/08/2008 08:58:56
#37 Linda

Did I say Wee Eck? That should of course read Wee Jack. How quickly the failed are forgotten.
39

LEAL,

03/08/2008 09:12:04
How will the appearance of a Scottish Labour Party candidate on the ballot paper in Ingrams constituency affect his chances of re-election?
40

jdships,

03/08/2008 09:21:18
" ........as leading MSPs demanded the new leader wrest "complete control" of the party from its London headquarters."

Anyone like to tell us how this will affect the formulation of policies ?
It plainly smacks of political posturing .
"Tried and found guilty" comes to mind as far as Labour in Scotland in general and UK in particular is concerned

They are "Doomed just Doomed " !!!
41

glassbenmhor,

03/08/2008 09:23:14
Hey Nikko boy,
Aye,
See you've changed your outlook just a wee bit,
well my fine lad,
as proficied upon this very site about six month ago,
however you omitted the key words that will go with this elustrious title,
the independent Scottish labour party,

WORKING FOR THE WEAL OF THE SCOTTISH PEOPLE
IN A PROUD KNOWLEDGE OF THEIR SCOTTISH HISTORY
AND ANSWERABLE BUT, ONLY TO THE PEOPLE OF THIS LAND.

and if not here is a wee ancient tip---

NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT
42

Faux Cu,

Palais Bourbon 03/08/2008 09:27:03
This article has tow feels about it.

One the core article one based on local Slab 3 wise monkey stuff and the other which looks as though it was inserted later, maybe after the Sunday Herald was published online, with the actual article written by Tom MCCabe.

Pasted together to look like a scoop but anything but that.

Maybe AM2 was stumped by not seeing the published article before it hit the web and could not get his "first post passed" hit, except on the week-end trailed filler article that "Salmond demands cuts in fuel..........)

You would think that when the Slab had reached rock botton they would stop digging?

Seems like they are getting stuck right in trying to go direct to political Hades

Its finger lickin good and I'm lovin it!
43

b.allan,

alba 03/08/2008 09:28:14
they need "to learn the lessons from the SNP", aye, they certainly do.Learn that the scottish people want a government working hard in OUR interest, not self interest. Learn that a bunch of power hungry, corrupt to the core "politicians" who do the bidding of their London masters is against the scottish interest.
Independence. It's time.
44

Longdirk Maceth,

NZ 03/08/2008 09:37:42
"In an exclusive article in today's Sunday Herald, McCabe says Scottish Labour needs to give its new leader "complete control" of the party, back greater financial powers for Holyrood and support the abolition of the council tax"

What about giving control to the Scottish Goverment of some of these:

The Constitution
Political parties
Foreign affairs
Public service
Defence
Fiscal, economic and monetary policy
Misuse of drugs
Data protection
Elections
Firearms
Entertainment
Immigration and nationality
Scientific procedures on live animals
National security, interception of communications, official secrets and terrorism
Betting, gaming and lotteries
Emergency powers
Extradition
Lieutenancies
Business associations
Insolvency
Competition
Intellectual property
Import and export control
Sea fishing
Consumer protection
Product standards, safety and liability
Weights and measures
Telecommunications and wireless telegraphy
Post Office, posts and postal services
Research Councils
Designation of assisted areas
Industrial Development Advisory Board
Protection of trading and economic interests
Electricity
Oil and gas
Nuclear energy
Energy conservation
Road transport
Rail transport
Marine transport
Air transport

Or are us Scots to thick to run our own country?

45

JohnBowes,

03/08/2008 09:55:40
Mr. McCabe, how much have you claimed in expenses over the last 10 years say? How many freebies and dinners have you consumed?

Did you back up Donald's lap dog - Trendy Middle Class Wendy? What do you think of Brown Nose Bailey? WHO is she sniffing around this weather? Has she dumped Middle Class Wendy? WHAT about Jack the Lad (wink wink, know what I mean)? Does his wife even trust him?

How much did your party give to teachers? DID you vote for that? WHAT did you work at Tom?

Any family members working for you (well, for us really)?

Are you a "socialist" Tom? So, where do you live and how much is your house worth? Are you standing up for the working man? Would that be the MIDDLE CLASS "worker"?

Have you ever really worked in a working class sense? DO you even know what that really means? Are teachers working class Tom? NO wonder people like me are not voting Labour.



46

Scotsgait - The Independent Portal to Scotland,

03/08/2008 09:56:41
It's only taken them a year to work out one of the reasons they lost the election. It'll take a much longer time for them to regain the support of the electorate. (Currently 90% of voters in a Scotsgait poll believe that the SNP will hold Glasgow East at the general election).

47

JohnBowes,

03/08/2008 10:00:03
So, Henry MacLeish has spoken. Eh? So did he get booted out of office? WHO is going to listen to him? Who will speak big stuff next? Trendy Lap Dog Wendy? Donalds poodle/crawler?

As for Jack Lad, does his wife still work for the Glesga council? I bet she has done just great eh?

Perhaps Cairns will say a few words and tell us how much expenses and freebies he has got. Lovely stuff eh? Are you still have surgeries in all the wee middle class villages around Inverclyde David? Brown nosing them are you?

48

Nikostratos,

03/08/2008 10:14:11
#50 Longdirk Maceth,

"The Constitution"

Unfortunately any constitution will be subservient to and shaped by the Treaties of the European Union.


As the snp have accepted and agreed is in scotland's best interests.
49

Craig Cockburn,

Linlithgow 03/08/2008 10:14:39
The Labour constitution is a mess. It would be far simpler if this position was the leader in Scotland, not just the leader of Scottish MSPs.

If Labour can't organise themselves effectively, how can the lead a country?
50

lodger,

Highland 03/08/2008 10:14:55
The Labour Party in Scotland is about to self destruct ---- Light the red, white and blue touch paper and retire immediately!

AND GOOD RIDDANCE.
51

Earman,

Dumfries 03/08/2008 10:25:32
#54

Perhaps the point is that we, as an independent Nation, would, at the very least, have OUR representatives at that particular table speaking on OUR behalf and with OUR best interests to the fore, Nikostratos.
52

Nikostratos,

03/08/2008 10:27:37
#92


"TWO-thirds of Scots believe ministers are acting unfairly"

"The WSTA/ICM poll asked people if they thought it was unfair that Scots should have to pay more because of a minority – 66% said yes. It also asked people if they would be happy to pay more to reduce problem drinking – 25% agreed. Meanwhile, 75% said they thought it was unfair to pay more than people in England."

2/3 of scot believe the snp are unfair and 75% thought the snp forcing scots to pay more than in england was unfair.

"ALEX Salmond has backed calls for a windfall tax on energy companies and said Gordon Brown should go further into the red in order to help ease the pain for taxpayers."

If Alex wants to ease the pain for taxpayers perhaps he should stop taxing them 'Unfairly'
53

Nikostratos,

03/08/2008 10:30:23
#57 earman

Even if your contention was correct it would not make any difference to how scotland wished to proceed.
54

Dragonlord,

03/08/2008 10:39:43
In an Independant Scotland, Labour, Tories, Libdems and the SNP would fight it out for control of the Scottish parlament. Is that not what nu-labour want?
Quote:Former Finance Minister Tom McCabe said the next Labour leader at Holyrood should have total power over Scottish affairs.
Bring on independance and leave the floundering English to their Tory demise.
55

First Minister,

On Way To Pitlochry 03/08/2008 10:41:50
***BREAKING NEWS*** SUNDAY MAIL IN BREAK WITH TRADITION

In a historic move the Redtop has openly backed the SNP In todays Editorial :

"He could borrow £30billion, as Alex Salmond suggests, and cut taxes boost consumer confidence.

Brown does not want to be seen dancing to Salmond's jig and he does not want to be derided by the Tories for breaking his fiscal rules.

But suffering a few schoolboy jibes from David Cameron in the Commons is a small price to pay for helping hard-pressed families".

56

Itchy,

03/08/2008 10:43:48
"Nevertheless, First Minister Alex Salmond will today add more pressure on the Prime Minister by insisting that there is a strong case for such a windfall tax. He also says the Treasury should break its own rules on borrowing and go further into the red in order to help ease the pain for taxpayers.

In a warning to the Prime Minister, Salmond will say that cuts in fuel duty and reductions in heating costs are necessary to restore consumer confidence.

Salmond says that in the last downturn in the early 1990s the UK Government borrowed far more as it sought to pump up the economy. He says that Brown and Darling should now do the same.
"

These are very stupid proposals. Do not ask for this, Mr Salmond. It will mean that you, as well as Labour, are the enemy.
57

The Spook in Leith,

03/08/2008 10:49:39
"Civil war engulfs Labour Party " That is a very positive sign that the labour party are heading for the dumps for a long and lonely time.

Even if the Scottish Labour party was to untangle some of London's apron strings, they are still onionists and i dont like onions.
58

The Spook in Leith,

03/08/2008 10:51:00
#60 moniker missing

Good point but Niko does have a face like a fish just hope he doesnt smell like one!!!
59

Red Etin,

03/08/2008 10:51:21
" in fact, the leader of the Scottish party is the UK leader, Gordon Brown. "

Eh? "UK Leader" - since when was the Labour Party active in Northern Ireland? Great Britain Leader, surely?
60

The Spook in Leith,

03/08/2008 10:55:46
#66

or the Isle of Man!!!
61

Nikostratos,

03/08/2008 10:57:07
#58 for #52 and not 92.....obviously


#60 ?

http://www.dintur.no/joomla/images/stories/info/_YA16894.jpg
62

Earman,

Dumfries 03/08/2008 11:03:44
#59

Now Nikostratos, surely it has to be conceded, at the very least, that my contention is correct and that, in common with all other member states, we would have Scottish representatives at the table.

The second part of your post would suggest that, in your opinion, it is a pointless exercise for ANY country to sit at that table, as doing so makes no difference as to how those countries proceed. Now, if that IS your position then that is a different debate altogether, don't you think? It may even be one on which we might have some common ground!

63

Nikostratos,

03/08/2008 11:05:46
#65

Um i see the spook manged to drag himself out of bed and across the room slumped over his P.C and start hurling his first load of abuse for the day....

I only hope with the new snp policy of teetotalism you didn't get out of your head over the weekend.Best you have one of these

http://www1.salvationarmy.org.uk/images/uki.www_uki/army%20cup%20of%20tea.jpg
64

The Spook in Leith,

03/08/2008 11:12:28
#69 moniker missing

MONKFISH 3.10 2.20 ? gone up a wee bit from last week.

#71 Niko, oh now now Niko your acting all fishy, just stop it!! I was out last night, i was all drunk and is teetotalism a new species of fish ?, nice mug..
65

The Spook in Leith,

03/08/2008 11:16:41
#70 Earman,Dumfries

#59 Niko "if that IS your position then that is a different debate altogether, don't you think? It may even be one on which we might have some common ground!"

Er common ground with Niko? Have you seen his photo?

http://images.livescience.com/images/ls_ugliest_monkfish_03_10.jpg

Still think you have something in common, hmm nuff said.
66

Rasco,

Inverness 03/08/2008 11:23:57
Who is picking fights with Westminster now
67

muppetfinder,

03/08/2008 11:25:17
If Scotland had been independent the rise in oil price would mean there would be a real surplus in the Scottish Treasury.
68

P Rayner.,

London 03/08/2008 11:26:41
Tom McCabe's suggestion that since "Scottish Labour" has been hamstrung by Westminster it, Scottish Labour, should therefore have full control of its afairs in Scotland. Without this, it follows, the demise of Labour in Scotland is likely to continue. My problem with this is that if Scottish Labour wishes to deny influence from Westminster by indentifying itself solely with Scotland why then should it be permitted to influence the outcome of a national, Westminster, election? Is that having your cake and eating it? What would those two"giants," Dewar and Smith say now?
69

The Spook in Leith,

03/08/2008 11:27:36
#75 Rasco,Inverness 03/08/2008 11:23:57
Who is picking fights with Westminster now

I was last week, why has someone complained??
70

Anagol,

Edinburgh 03/08/2008 11:33:31
"For too long there have been Scottish Labour politicians at local government level and at Westminster who have been resentful and even contemptuous of the Scottish parliament." (T McCabe, Sunday Herald today)

This admission by a former Holyrood minister on behalf of Scottish Labour confirms that the Labour Party is not fit to have anything to do with the government of Scotland. No part of any party seeking power in Scotland should be contemptuous of this country and its institutions. There is no scope for recovery from this position. The Labour Party should never have been in it in the first place. That it was and still is in this position is unacceptable and unpardonable.

Thank you for the belated candour, Mr McCabe. It is nice for those of us who saw through your party all along to be proved right, but I do not think that it can do you any good at this late stage. You have had your chance. When you thought you could not lose your core support, you did not bother to reform yourselves. That is when reform might have been sincere and therefore arguably worthy of respect. Now it is merely the desperation of rats wondering whether the time has come to leave the sinking ship. Don't leave it. Go down with it and with all the other so-called comrades who are already beginning to denounce you.
71

The Spook in Leith,

03/08/2008 11:37:19
#77 P Rayner

I agree with Tom McCabe and the Scottish Labour party should run as a Scottish party and not kowtow to the desperados in London. You say ask why should Scottish Labour be permitted to influence the outcome of a national, Westminster, election??
That is a good question but in a Westminster by-election the SNP,s Scottish First minister (a msp) played a decisive role in ensuring Labour were dumped out from that seat, my point is that if a party has representation North and South of the border then it will be almost impossible to separate them.
72

jkr,

Lochwinnoch Greater Glasgow 03/08/2008 11:47:54
Is there any other parliament in the world that doesn't have tax powers except Scotland?
At least Tom McCabe is advocating more fiscal powers.
After the next UK election there will be a Tory government at Westminster. David Cameron must have talks now with Alex Salmond about greatly extending
powers including taxation to Scotland. While I think there will be more Tory MPs from Scotland after the next general election they will still be a minority and this could be dangerous for Cameron unless more powers are given to Holyrood. This is why Salmond is waiting till 2010 to hold the referendum.
The Conservatives must show they have more to offer devolution than the UK Labour party.
73

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/08/2008 11:51:08
#80 The Spook

With respect, that's a daft position. What's the point of a devolved Labour Party? It's a unionist party, but other than that, little different from the SNP. The policies will be broadly similar other then The Big One. Devolution in the party won't change that.
74

Daveunderwater,

03/08/2008 11:51:41
Oh dear, no more funding from Westminster...

So let's look forward to even more dodgy donations

LOL, You couldn't make it up

Krakatoa west of Glasgow East!!
75

The Spook in Leith,

03/08/2008 11:56:43
#82 Niko was a wimp as well.

Indeed Labour (Scottish) is devolved but it is still the same entity as London Labour no matter what despot puppet is at the helm in Scotland.
76

Draco Was a Wimp,

Edinburgh 03/08/2008 12:00:46
#84 The Spook

Yes, but to devolve it so far that it is fundamentally different from Labour across the rest of the UK, is to tacitly admit that Scotland is so different politically and socially that it's politics are incompatible with the rest of the UK. In that case, it would be illogical not to agree with the SNP and not be seperate all together.
77

Tiredofdrivel ,

England 03/08/2008 12:35:02
Imagine a four bedroom house, in one room lives a family from NI, in the other three bedrooms live families from Wales Scotland and England. The house is not worth to much and the mortgage on it is much greater than its value. However the four families have agreed to pay the mortgage, this is what Mr Gawdoon Mugabie Brooown and the ZANUlabour party have done to the UK, they have mortgaged it up to the hilt and beyond leaving us all in the same crapper together.
Now independence is nice, and I am sure that the SNP have explained to the Scottish voters what they intend to do about this situation, after all they have been part of it. The situation created by ZANUlabour will take enormous efforts by the inhabitants of the UK to dig their selves out of it.

78

P Rayner.,

London. 03/08/2008 12:42:08
80 The Spook. I agree with your second paragraph. The Labour party, which along with other UK parties, including SNP, I have no time for, is a National party and as such cannot be solely responsible for just one section of the UK. If Scottish Labour wishes to exist without influence from London then it should be a separate party. In fact the more I think of it this whole devolution thing is an unworkable nonsense, brought about by EU dictate. Divide and rule for thirty pieces of Euro silver.
79

Richard Taylor,

Aberdeen 03/08/2008 12:44:44
So a Labour party puppet has come out & admitted what we all knew...that McConnell & Alexander were also hamstrung by having to run everything past London.

Something they DIDN'T admit when in office - but we all knew anyway! But HEY - the new man/woman will be different....hmm, a certain line in a Who song springs to mind. Meet The New Boss....
80

Faux Cu,

Palais Bourbon 03/08/2008 13:05:08
#86 Tiredofdrivel ,England 03/08/2008 12:35:02

No, imagine an allotment containing 4 houses, NI, Wales Scotland and England.

The English house is 9 times bigger than the Scottish one, the Welsh one is smaller still and conjoined to the very big English one. The NI one is the smallest and on an island in a lake at the back of the other three.

The English one bestraddles the only way in and out of the Scottish one, only lets those it wants in and out of it and only permits the goods and services it allows to pass. It charges Danegelt.

Meanwhile the good folks in the Scottish house are sending money goods and services to the English to help them live the life to wich they have become accomodated.

The man in the big hoose, although he once lived in the wee Scottish one has buggered up the finances for everyone.

The people in the wee Scottish house say, enough is enough, we are going to build our own road to the outside World and stop paying Danegelt to the mobsters in the big English one.

A better analogy than yours I think?
81

Faux Cu,

Palais Bourbon 03/08/2008 13:06:40
Sorry typo

should read

Meanwhile the good folks in the Scottish house are sending money goods and services to the English one to help them live the life to wich they have become accomodated.
82

Faux Cu,

Palais Bourbon 03/08/2008 13:08:21
too much Sunday lunch rose

wich = which

and

accomodated = accommodated
83

Alanski2005,

Edinburgh 03/08/2008 13:09:57
I hope they all slit each others throats, they are the absolute pits these Labour fools. The only way I could vote for Labour is if they break from West-monster and declare their support for Independence. Then they have to rebuild and bring in some people who are not corrupted, incompetent and living a life of hypocrisy. It is truly depressing watching these vile nonentities - utterly oblivious to the needs of Scotland.
84

Tiredofdrivel ,

03/08/2008 13:18:46
The point I am making Faux Cu is simply this, Zanulabour have mortgaged us all up to the hilt, true or false, and the answer is TRUE, which means we are in all the same crapper together, true or false again TRUE.
Unlike you I do not pander to the politicians who go for the popular vote, I like to understand the facts as I stopped reading Enid Blyton many years ago.
85

European Scot,

03/08/2008 13:20:19
85 Draco Was a Wimp

"Yes, but to devolve it so far that it is fundamentally different from Labour across the rest of the UK, is to tacitly admit that Scotland is so different politically and socially that it's politics are incompatible with the rest of the UK"

That is actually it in a nutshell, Scotland is politically different.
Scotland never supported Thatcher, but they still got stuck with her.
Scotland has tended to be more socialistic in its attitudes, England, mainly the South East, more conservative.
New Labour in Scotland are looking for a new leader, but what happens when it's all decided, will there really be anything new on offer ?
Probably not, it will just be a case of new singer, but same old song.
A truly Scottish Labour Party, one supporting the Independence of Scotland, and actually representing Scottish Labour voters, would have an immediate and be